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Posted 6 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Good afternoon mr shane cole..may i start by asking what area you are in?? have you ruled out frost damage if you are in an area where it is cold and get regular frost's?
Hi Mr keep it green
We are in Rotorua NZ which is frost country!!! But yes we have ruled out frost damage as this problem occurs all year round regardless of temp. Its something that has us completely stumped!!!!!!
Posted 6 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Hi Shane as my name suggest i like to keep things green , do you think you may have a defiency of some kind. I have heard of rotorua which club are you? isnt NZ close to Australia? any how what are your water rates when using your acidic fert? it has that scorched look like a good old sun burn on a hot american afternoon. KIG
Posted 6 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Hi Shane.....what height are you mowing at? do u keep regular backlapping techiniques to the best of your ability? how much experience looking after your own golf course do you have? i can only assume bad spraying techniques as a guide here...have you talked ot your spray technician? calbrated your sprayer? have you thought about insects...just a thought!!!KIG
mowing height is 3.8mm regular backlapping takes place units have just had a reel grind. Its nothing to do with spray techniques I can guarantee that. Remember this is happening on to different golf courses approx 2km apart. we are 100% confident it is not a maintenance fault issue. We make the comparison of these patches to a mild form of take all patch. we have put it to the message board hoping someone out there make have come across it before.
Posted 6 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Hi shane i was not trying to offend its just im so experienced and i have seen this many times but your answers to me make no sense so i will leave you with your disease.....how about them black alls or all blacks eh!!!! that quade cooper must be the best player ever to play for NZ...would make a good quarter back eh...i like lacrosse my self......have you considered urine damage?
Posted 6 Jun 2012 James Goodwin
Hi Shane, is this disease spotty on the leaves? When was the last time the greens were opened up (Verti-drained etc)
Hi James, Greens were cored 8 weeks ago and the disease isn't spotty the whole leaf changes colour. Any Ideas????
Posted 7 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
Hi, there, Have you been experiencing very low night temps with fairly high day temps, i.e. a good fluctuation in temperatures from night to day?
Posted 7 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Hi Shane have you had anymore luck with your disease? do you feel your ph could be higher? how often does this occur?
As you havnt replied to my other post's its hard to know were you are at , have you ruled out insect damage , the foliar fert will be strong enough to change the plant colour for a time then the insect will ravage the plant again , have you aplied any insecticides? talk to your spray techinician and see if one can be applied , does your 2ic have any ideas? Maybe he does but is keeping quiet because he wants you to fail and he takes your job , or he wanted your job in first place,,,i am a big fan of lacrosse as i have said have you considred giving this game a go its a real hoot eh!!! the black alls are looking good eh...anyhow reply to me or private message me i am more than happy to visit some day and give my valuble assitance to you , i am looking for an excuse to bring my lacrosse game to nz , come on you wallabies i love the Haka they do , speak soon
Posted 7 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
If your so experienced 'keep it green' youd know what it is???????????
Posted 7 Jun 2012 James Goodwin
Hi Shane, any chance you could add another photo, in the photo above the tops of the leaves look like the mower blades are crewing the grass try adding a brush to the front of the units if you haven't already.
Also it hard to tell from a photo but it looks very much like a bad case of crown rust.
Try adding firm star with your fungicide applications if you haven't already this will asist with the up take of the chemical plus aid in protecting the application from the weather at the moment.
Please take out of this what you like as I don't know what kind of budget retrictions your working with.
Posted 7 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
James thats a nice description , but as the above post say i asked him about his sharpness of the cutting units and he says this isnt an issue it was one of the first things that came into my mind when i saw the photo as i am very expereinced and love keeping it green. Shane also says the agronomists could not identify it , 
very frustrating...i also like ice hockey also.
Posted 7 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Crown rust james im sure only effects rye grass...please correct me if im wrong which of course i wont be 
Posted 7 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
Agronomists in NZ have identified it we,ve done our homework properly in the waikato, so dont worry about it keep it green if your expertise does not reach this far.
Posted 7 Jun 2012 James Goodwin
Robert what was the cause, I'm very interested seen it seems to be affecting a few clubs? And keep it green crown rust affects other species also, as I said the photo was hard to tell.
Posted 7 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
So if it has been identifyed why cant you help shane out , he has had a visit from an agronomist with no luck...or havnt you ben reading the very start of all this.
Posted 7 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
we sent off samples to NZSTI with a similar problem and thy returned with a specific answer. However need to know a few more specifics off shane first to be sure its this disease.
Shane if you contact Doug millington at Horsham downs in the waikato he might be able to shed some light on this disease.
Certainly wouldnt trust keep it green who doesnt know where NZ is!!
Posted 7 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
I am only trying to help , being an american its natural for me to be arrogant and upmyself as it were , i no where nz is but i will brush up on my geography but im here to help with turf...Do u know how to play lacrosse robert?
Hey thanks Robert and James yesterday afternoon we sent samples of the NZSTI and the ever so knowledgeable Megan Cushnahan has got answers for me im just waiting on her feed back. she is the queen of turf that is for sure!!!! From what I gather courses in the south island have had it as well but I will give Doug a call to. I will keep you posted on what the results are!!!!!! WATCH THIS SPACE
By the way keep it green are you on drugs or something?
Posted 8 Jun 2012 Brandon Parker
Hi Shane,
Have seen similar cases like this in the South Island.... notably a high end resort course.
The results we had when taking samples to both Plantwise for disease analysis returned a zero spore count (no disease) and they hadn't applied a fungicide for 6 weeks.
It was then decided that perhaps nutrients had been locked up (phosphorus) at low pH, plus the change of season.
There are products you can apply to help this, and this user noticed a change in 3 to 4 days. Not a fertiliser either.
Cheers.
Posted 8 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
im going for michondrium bolleyie
Posted 8 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
not sure on the actuall spelling sorry, but it occurs when you have high temp fluctuations i think????
Hi Shane
I have never seen this disease be for, it might just only happen on small unknown clubs in New Zealand.... I have been on courses the have frost on it all day, an i have never had it happen to me but i have all ways been on a million dollar course so maybe the quality in courses makes a differences who knows.
by the way keep it green, lacrosse is for idiots basketball and NFL are the games.... GO THE MIAMI HEAT......your not the only american on this site mate!!!
Posted 8 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
HI Shane it seems Mr dunkley is trying to attack me thorugh his words...but as i am so experienced i can battle on and try solve this good old jigsaw puzzle , Mr dunkley we need correct spelling sorry as it is just no use giving false details it will help you become more like myself in the future. Brandon seems very good and i like his input here , where shane works at this time of year will not have temp fluctuations as i no how new zealand climates work aswell as general nz knowledge of places.
Shane i take your comments about drug use personaly...i am being my non arrogant self and trying to help , the thing i like the smell of tho is freshly cut clippings and the odd smell of petrol..maybe thats what you are meaning. i am an experienced turf manager having looked after many top class turf areas. the smell of clippings is a real treat i think it should be bottled? I enjoy lacrosse and ice hockey and maybe the odd game of croquet lawn bowls is also a favorite..oh i am sorry i seem to be fluffing on a bit , i am getting old eh..
Posted 8 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
I am being attacked here shane and i only want to help you out , my choice of social life entertainment is mine only i do not need your input about that thankyou mr aston , i am here for the turf industry and with my expereience i can help out...KIG
Posted 8 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
i never want to be like an idiot in the future!! keep it green!!!
You dont know anything about NZ so just stay in your own little world. Go the miami Heat!!! are they in the finals??
if shane was a good super maybe he would know what he was talking about an he wouldn't have this problem in the first place are you sure that you didnt get your qualification out of a creal box mate.... just saying
Posted 8 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Yes it was out of kellogs crunchy nut cornflakes a favorite of mine when reading lacrosse monthly , now now robert lets be mature here i havnt offended you in any way shape or form , i like ice hockey in fact its one of my favorites...it seems you have to be a fan of basketball mr dunkley with a last name like that.KIG
keep it green i was talking about shane not you
Posted 8 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
yes well you have a valid point their mr boyd....he obviosly lacks the experience and knowledge we both have....i also have been on mostly million dollar courses so i expect it is a small club issue amongst nz...i am of the opininon shane has as mcuh expereince as my left toe nail...but we have to start somewhere...KIG
I love lacrosse shall we have a game one day mate??????/??
Posted 8 Jun 2012 James Goodwin
I personally think it takes a very confident super to be able to seek advice from other turf managers. There's been a lot of turf managers within NZ that have failed to seek advice and lost greens in the past! ..
Posted 8 Jun 2012 Shane Cole Last edited: 10 Jun 2012
Keep it green and Boyd Aston you two MONKEYS are a complete disgrace to the turf industry. Sounds like you guys are the **** heads who got there qualification out of a cereal box!!!!!!!!!!!!! You two and your million dollar courses can stick it up your ****!!!! We are TWO superintendents with over 30 years experience between us and we put it to the message board because we are looking for answers and you two dicks sit there and go on about how experienced you are and yet you have NOT!!! got any answers. so stick your experience!!! All you can come up with is smelling grass clippings and petrol fumes. As for your little toe nail KEEP IT GREEN dip in your petrol fumes and see how a box of matches sorts out all your knowledge. The turf industry needs to get rid of small minded, stuck up, retards! like you
Thanks James
Posted 8 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
HI shane..i have it appears to me that i have hit a nerve with you and your lack of experience...something which i have buckets loads if you need a hand....your response with your terrible language i feel is a disgrace to this website and all it stands for...if my new zealand knowlodge corrects me i think the movie once were warriors was filmed their leaving me with nothing else than to shake my head and let you be as its not your fault being in the area you are...i watched the movie once on my 5 million dollar course for smoke once...over many lunch breaks of course but the plasma screen was fab to hav unlike you will ever expereince..i must correct you as it wasnt million dollar courses i have worked on but 5 million plus...sorry for correcting you gain...the turf industry needs me and my expereince and we have seen what happens when some body with the lack of it gets in charge of a club that still mows the fairways with sheep...maaaaaaaaaaa...although i agree its a great use of the overflow your country has of these beings...i have heard they can eat to about 3mm on the turf surface...this may help your problem...who knows its clear its not you...KIG
Posted 8 Jun 2012 Murray Wells
Wow guys this is getting hot. I think, putting this in perspective is shane really wants to resolve his disease issue. Its safe to assume his machine is cutting well and the area has been sprayed with the appropriate chemicals so lets try and stay on task here
Posted 8 Jun 2012 massy ferguson
Hi Murray Wells...have you had the same thoughts that maybe his spray technician is at fault here? i like fresh blood have you tryed lacrosse murray? i love it...i am offering my assitance here murray but he is not taking it just being aggressive towards me eh...i love hot dogs do you?
It would be nice to try and keep this post to the topic guys the petty arguments although amusing to some are not what we intend our message boards pages to be filled with.
Posted 9 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
Hi Rob Jenkins,
Is there any way we can blacklist or ban Keep it green and Boyd Aston, if you read all their comments they are total weirdos and should not be using this site!!!! They are a disgrace to greenkeepers!!!
Look forward to hearing yur results shane and talking to you sometime soon. Rob, Ngaruawahia golf club.
Hi Murray.
Hi Rob Dunkley
could not agree more with you "keep it green" and "boyd aston"
are a complete disgrace to turf managers world wide. For all we know they probably look after home lawns or something. Rob are you going to palmerston north next week for the fine turf seminar???
Keep it green- the only nerve you have struck with me is the fact you are a complete tosser that thinks they have a world of knowledge but really you know nothing and should go back to mowing home lawns. as im sure most will agree you have not offered any assistance what so ever.
Posted 9 Jun 2012 robert dunkley
Sorry shane no im not going.
Too short staffed at present. will catch up soon let me know your results.
Thanks Rob
Posted 16 Jun 2012 Barry Pace Last edited: 16 Jun 2012
Trolls.... tsk.. funny but please stay under the bridge boys when a genuine interesting thread is on the go..
I know very little (OK nowt) about NZ, not much about Browntop (only a little) but know that a ph below 5 will make anything apart from fescue struggle as well as limit nutrient availability, biological diversity and potentially create hydrophobic soil conditions the lower you go (The best I have found in UK was 3.2 in the practice area at the NGC when we built it.)
Dealing with that to try and get it up at 5.2-5.5 and your sward will have a better time of it I would have thought and if nothing else make it more resilient to the conditions (if it is temp shift) causing the symptom shown.
Posted 25 Jun 2012 Brandon Parker
Hi Barry,
In New Zealand, pH targets are commonly in the low 4's as colonial browntop thrives in this zone. Some nutrient lock-up could be the cause of this issue perhaps, but in the long run raising the pH to that level would cause more harm than good!
Thanks Brandon, live and learn eh, here that is bloomin strong for any grass, even fescue gets lean at that level and more importantly the biology and soil struggles to 'operate', IMHO, below 5 with hydrophobia and nutrient lock happening. I guess the biology there must be adapted to the ph, one day the Boffs will catch up and suss out how the mechanics are working and would be interesting to see if it purely hemispheric..
Posted 27 Jun 2012 keriboi Hawker
Any tests back shane? Has it gone away with the cold?
Posted 27 Jun 2012 Will Bowden
Hi there,
I have been following this discussion (the early part of it) with interest and I was at the NIFTS last week when this issue was raised during the workshop programme.
My name is Will Bowden I am a Turf Consultant for Sports Surface Design and Management (SSDM) in Auckland. My background has been in the UK, with some limited exposure to Northern European environments and turf types. My university education was also in Turf Management in the UK.
As such I have been well used to observing the purpling of bent grass (as you describe) during chiefly autumn and spring months in the UK. It has always been a common occurance of poa annua/bent greens in the UK and I will throw in my experience of this condition for good measure -
I have always attributed this bronzing/purpling to the production of sugars within the plant cells as a precursor to the production of chlorophyll and the subsequent process of photosynthesis. In essence we would experience a relatively warm, bright day in the autumn or spring (sometimes even mid summer) and the plant would be "fooled" in to thinking it was time to grow and photosythesise, this results in the production of sugars but then before these can be used for the process of chlorophyll production the evening comes and/or seasonal weather conditions mean the daylight fades and temperature drops away and these sugars can not be processed. They are then the cause of the visual purpling of the entire leaf and that "links style" look of the surface of the greens.
I would draw comparison to the process of autumnal leaf discolouration and the spectacle of colours observed in braodleaved trees at the start of the autumn.
I have always been under the belief that these symptoms are not based upon any fungal pathogen and although the visual discolouration may be masked by a timely application of iron and/or winter turf tonicv, as long as environmental conditions prevail the discolouration will return as soon as the feed/iron has passed through the plant. I was very surprised to hear that fungal pathogens had been found present within submitted samples and perhaps this is a case of these pathogens "always" being present within the plant - just not at a level that exceeds thresholds?
I manage the SSDM Turf Clinic (pest and disease analysis centre) and I would be more than happy to receive samples from any of the guys experiencing this condition within the NZ Turf sector. I have the capabilities to analyse and study any such samples in our lab and it would be of great personal interest to me if I could find a pathogen that is causing this issue.
For what it is worth, in my personal opinion there is not a pathogen that causes this condition, it is a result of environmental stresses placed upon a plant that is cool season and subjected to a period of relatively high fluctuations in daylight, air and soil temperatures. One thing that would be interesting to note, would be how many of the guys in NZ experiencing this are on soil or sand rootzones? My bet is the majority would be on sand or heavily amerliorated soil/sand rootzones.
I hope some of this may help, and as I have said please feel free to contact me and shoot through any info and/or samples if you get a chance.
Kind Regards
Will
Hi Guys
Update time!!!
Sample was sent off to NZSTI. No conclusive results came from this after talking with NZSTI and then discussing it at the NIFTS last week. It is similar to microdochium bolleyi but there was talk of it could be sugars locking up in the plant like Will said. so its all still up in the air at the moment but we are slowly getting closer to an answer.
I will keep you posted in the next few days!!!
Also Will Bowden I will give you a call tomorrow to have a chat
Cheers Shane
Posted 28 Jun 2012 Anthony Asquith
This is my two pennith for what it is worth
The first thing is and it occurs in more than turf I think its a whole plant response and usually its a decrease in photosynthetic rates now the issue is whats really causing it?. Autumn, Winter and Spring are (unless in England and Ireland!) colder however you still have sunlight and sufficient sunlight to drive photosynthesis. The issue is that the light quantities become overwhelming for photosynthetic levels which are lower than summer time particularly in late fall and early spring and all over winter hence a drop off in clipping yield. This then leads to a buildup of certain problems, you get energized oxygen radicals and also overly excited chlorophylls which cannot dissipate that energy this occurs most commonly in PSII this then leads to a degradation of the photosynthetic apparatus and cell walls and an even greater loss of photosynthesis the plant responds in two ways repair with enzymatic activity (more likely spring) or if it is going into winter some form of retraction of material (nitrogen, carbs etc) in leaf tissue and dormancy. The reason that many argue and I tend to see as being a valid statement that the bronzing occurs is that the red/purple/blue color is produced to protect whats left of the photosynthetic apparatus while the plant breaks down other materials in a method to maintain some form of photosynthesis while reducing damage. The compounds (anthocyanins) are also found in strawberries, cherries, red potatoes etc., and are sold as being highly beneficial antioxidants for human consumption. For plants thats the same they can do two things, they reflect red light the absorb green and sit in the epidermis of the leaf tissue on above the chloroplasts. In their chemical formation when red the internal ph of the plant must be acidic as to hold a stable red color pH must be close to 2 thus the plant is still photosynthesizing as protons are being pumped into the vacuole. They also can take a lot of excess energy and this is where the phosphate argument has some validity. First they have 15 carbons in their backbone structure and I think of those there is 4-5 double bonds so for them to break down it requires a lot of energy and they are also positively charged normally so they can take one whole electron and reduce the energy associated with it thats the antioxidant part. I think the reduction in PS would lead to a reduction in sugars - the reserves would have to be used and in truth structural sugars are not easily cannibalized - so it would have to be soluble sugars and in truth turfgrass plants dont build up huge reserves of them - trees maybe but their storage capacity is way larger - turf not so much but you could have some argument to it but the sugar thing is hard to get a consistent measure so maybe some grass variation in there also. So, in general I would argue its overall Photosynthesis.
Anthony
Phew... so that my brain can take that in then Mr AA and Mr Will is it much the the same scenario as creeping bent here, it don't like winter and goes asleep like a dormouse but the sun keeps shining through the curtains some days keeping it from nodding off properly at the start and waking it prematurely at the end? I would be a bit purple too...
Hi
It looks like red leaf spot.
Neil Tombs
Posted 21 Jul 2012 graeme duncan
I have followed this thread with first interest then amusement and finally annoyance at some of the posts.
We are all here to help one another and shane having the balls to ask a question for a problem should be applauded not derided or slagged off for supposedly not having enough experience !!!
Just because you are experienced or think you are or watch a plasma telly at your 5 million dollar golf course does not make you any better than the rest of us and if you think it does then some of the earlier comments made will be spot on.
Anyway onto the matter at hand- Shane, I have been dealing with something similar to your issue for the last 6 years- i have had it id'd as a form of Michrodochium - it usually appears for me around end of April when temps start to drop - i have had success spraying preventatively with Amistar at full rates in Mid April but it came back around mid to late August and then went again when the temps and growth of the browntop picked up in mid september.
the disease did nothing to surface smoothness or ball roll and was only really a visual problem for golfers more than me but golfers seem to equate quality surfaces with colour before all else so as amistar is expensive for something which is only really a visual issue I have found that higher rates of a colour up fert works well in masking the issue until it goes away of its own accord.
happy to discuss further if you require it mate.
